interview

From Neşe Erdok’s Objective

Interview with the Modern Turkish Painter Neşe Erdok

Cem Altınel

Neşe Erdok, one of the typical representatives of the figurative inclination that ranges from Osman Hamdi to Neşet Günal, has had 27 individual exhibitions as well as taking part in more than 100 mixed ones. Erdok witnesses the human circumstances with a brave and even chivalrous as much as a dynamic expression, while she chooses a plain and non-violent style with scenes from our daily lives, a style that gets dramatized when necessary. Her style does not produce pity but it is not totally unaware of the social satire. Able to paint even the hardest moments of human being with a bare strength, she can have repercussions with its rich story. Themes regarding social issues are prevalent in her style. She is never stuck with the commercial concerns, she never broke her artistic attitude and she has been very successful at the modification of the alternations which are the requirements of the usual artistic responsibilities. Neşe Erdok is one of the struggler figures of the Turkish painting.

Cem Atınel: You have graduated from Istanbul Fine Arts Academy in 1963. Apart from pattern works and sketches, how many paintings do you think you have?

Neşe Erdok: In an efficient period, I have made about 37 paintings in a year and a half. But this number depends. Honestly speaking, I have never tried counting them at all. I do not prefer to start a new painting before I am done with another one. However; a painting can produce a new one when it is finished itself. I think, painting should be quit when you come to a certain age. This is not weakness. Rimbaud has quit art much earlier.

Ali Kemal'in Portresi

CA:  I have been collecting contemporary and figurative Turkish paintings since 1999. In this context, you are one of the most significant living figurative artists- besides A. Aksoy, Komet, M. Güleryüz and M. Ata to me. What do you think about the new generation contemporary figurative inclined Turkish artists?

NE:  I am rather hopeful about the new generation as there are artists who promise bright futures such as İrfan Önürmen, Sabahattin Tuncer, Cansen Ercan, more recently; Emin Turan, Zeynep Özdemir, Hale Işık, Hayri Ağan. But they will surely face problems about displaying and selling their works. However, they are artists; I believe they have the power to be able to carry on with this. The new generation does not have an information source problem. In this context; they are luckier, but they can not group. Grouping is quite important in this struggle; the most striking examples to this fact are the Germans and the surrealists.

CA:  You have been working in university as a lecturer since 1972. Do you have any mottos that you tell your students?

NE:    Do not waste a day not drawing!
           Watch the great masters!
           Watch the nature!
           Do not copy photos when painting!

CA:   Who are the foreign great masters that have inspired you?

NE:  Quite a few names. Earlier, Modigliani, Lautrec, Matisse, Degas; later on Spanish artists as El Greco, Valesquez, Goya had influence on me. Piero Della Francesca inspired me during a period. And I have been keen on Balthus lately.

CA:  There is a view claiming that the contemporary figure artists such as: Francine Von Hove, Harry Holland and Philip Pearlstein restrict the data flow by taking photos of the models and do not let the artist have enough space for motion by reducing the 3 dimension to 1 dimension. What do you think about this and the future of the figurative painting?

NE: I totally agree with it. Artists do to themselves by doing this. It is important that the artist is influenced directly, pattern is a very considerable and personal way expressing oneself, the camera captures solely a moment with only an eye. This is just like an artist not trusting his own brush, hand, eye or thought. An artist lives an object, she/he sees it for days. A painting done from a photograph is always different. The light and shadow in photography is different. The artist manages the shade- light order himself. Photography and painting are not only very close as relatives, but also quite different as different disciplines. Photographers learned a lot from painters. Many contemporary artists paint from the photographs. There is no problem if they can see the photograph as they see any object or any person with a painter’s eyes. (Only real painters can manage this. Very dangerous when still a nominee!)  I remember an art student trying to take a photo of the model in my studio telling that he had the model’s permission. I stopped his shot telling that he should have gotten my permission instead of the model’s and told that he could just work on it. I am a very anti-taboo kind, but I think when you do that something mechanic gets between the model and the painting, and you constantly have to change what you have done and think on your painting when you have the photo right opposite of you. A person is not a machine. It is important to be influenced directly; I have never seen the nudes of Philip Pearlstein in a photo, for instance. They are genuine. Ones who work from the photos deal with something very superficial. Figurative art will always exist as long as the human face is out there. The debates going on about the figurative and the abstract are periodic and neither of them dies. I have never felt like painting abstract. I agree with Francis Bacon; abstract art creates more ineffectual sensations.

Çıplak

CA: It is even said that you have a “sterilized” life and you do not have sympathy for guttersnipes and so on. What do you think about it?

NE:  No one who has a sterilized life can paint. I have lived as some kind of a monk, that is true. I have been on my own, I have neither been to a lot bars nor to the restaurants. I have not had quite a few friends; but no one can call it a sterilized life. This is actually something an artist uses to turn in on him/herself. Artists need some kind of loneliness in order to think, to be in deep meditation. Marguerite Duras says “Everyone should watch his own well hole.” The inherent is crucial! Burhan Uygur, for instance, has an extrovert life and scandals. This is not strange; he has not got these scandals in his paintings. He paints lyrically, he even writes poems on them. I have painted the guttersnipes in your example walking up and down Galatasaray in front of the Yapı Kredi Bank, observing very carefully. A painter observes. A painter keeps his place without being too sentimental. My brother died too young, I could never paint his 40s, and I have always imagined him alive and painted his earlier ages.

CA:  Do you call your art universal or local? Do you think Turkish art is international?

NE:  Every artist is local beyond all. Everyone has the traces of his/her culture and geography. Then he/she gets international if mentions the universal issues, no matter if he/she is popular around the globe or not. If the artist’s matters are international, then it targets anyone. This can also be said about the Turkish painting. My art is realist rather than naturalist.

CA:  Do you have anything to say about the well known saying: “Turkish art has no value further than Bulgaria”?

NE:  Of course I do. This is ridiculous. We should not underestimate ourselves. If some of our artists are not popular abroad, this is because they have not been introduced. This is some kind of an industry, every government displays their artists abroad, and it is not an individual striving. I do not see why people are very pretentious. It is enough to be a decent artist. Our problem is; art education should be widened. This is the case with science here in Turkey. The education systems abroad provide the people with orientation after choosing them themselves. I have faith in Turkish art, and I believe that we are also going to have decent kind of artists; the number is going to increase. We have a huge cultural heritage. I have been invited to Germany for many times, but I have told them that I was not interested at all. They should come see my works here in this 2600-year-old city. In fact, modernism is a critical way of seeing things.

CA:  Are you going to have any new themes in your upcoming shows? Are you thinking of adding something to your series (Gölköy/beach, ferries, etc.)?

NE:  There will be old people and children in my upcoming exhibitions. My mother stays in an Alzheimer foundation. I watch lots of old people there, being old-aged is a different image of humankind, dramatic enough, devastating, that state is exactly an imagination feeder and rich in image. I am a pessimistic type, yet I now that it is impossible to live with an absolute qualm. I always have little hope. I am never sarcastic but I like to make people smile.

Nesrin Kadıköy Vapurunda

CA: The traumas have an impulsive effect on the creation process of the artist, as in the example of Frida Kahlo. How do you think the operation you had and the process afterwards affected your paintings?

NE:  I have painted myself after the operation. That is my reality. It is not that I have not painted myself before this one. This is not something to hide, it belongs to my truth. This is a paintable truth. It is the first difference between Frida Kahlo and me. All of her works are auto portraits. My paintings are not all about auto portraits, they also include other people as well. We differ with her in this point.

CA:  Your auto portraits are comparatively more expensive than your other paintings of the same dimensions. Does this have a special reason?

NE: It was like that in the last exhibition. I guess I had the intention of not selling them deep down. But all of them were sold. I thought it would be rather personal. I think art lovers get these kinds of paintings. There is not such a thing called the price. The prices of the paintings are always speculated.

CA:  Who are the 3 Turkish artists that have influenced you from all the periods -without the restriction of figure-focused or out-of-figure?

NE:  One of them is Neşet Günal. Such a lot of names, it is hard to choose three of them.

CA: How do you think the concept of “collection” should be described?

NE:A collector should have a certain appreciation and priorities. I do not think it is right to have one work of every celebrated artist. The collector can collect the paintings/painters of a certain attitude or else only an artist’s works.

CA:  Can you please describe the time period that impressed you at the most? When would you like to live and paint if you had the chance?

N.E.:  I would like to live today. We know about the other time periods via intermediaries (books, movies...). Actually, the problems are generally the same.

CA: When do you think is the most important period of Neşe Erdok?

NE: I do not think I have that kind of periods in my paintings. There is this concept of developing and maintaining of a style.

CA:  Which one of your works do you value most?

NE:I do not think I am the one to answer this question. Critics, art historians, spectators etc... It is difficult to tell myself.

Otoportre

CA: Are you –as a female artist in favor of positive discrimination? Is marriage a kind of barrier for the female artists?

NE:  The difference between the male and the female does not show that they should not be equal. In positive discrimination it is like someone is condescending you something. If this is a struggle the women should get out of this struggle to have equality. I am against the task discrimination between the men and the women. Marriage might be a barrier, but this is too personal. There are a lot of examples when it is not. Paula Rego has many kids; we can see that it is not in her example.

CA:  Penture does not loom large in your paintings; is this because you never needed it?

NE: Penture means color painting. Usually, oil color is meant by this term. It can be thinly painted as well as thickly painted penture. There are a lot of Picasso pentures done with oil color and much water. It is connected with the calls of the artist. When the warm-cold or the light-dark relation is gained, the penture taste appears. Sometimes the thick color and the thin color can be used together. In painting there are some parts where much color is used, some parts are made with thin color, or sometimes the fabric outstands. I do not like the paintings done with much color. In Velasquez paintings, the light is shown with the color, in darker parts the color is usually thinner, and in some parts the fabric can be seen. This is the real penture. You might not feel the penture only by using the color. Color is not eatable; it is used for creating a certain visual effect.

CA: There are literary persons taking place in your paintings. What do you think about it?

NE: An Austrian poet called Georg Trakl, some poets who have been killed or committed suicide such as: Heinrich Von Kleist, Mayakovski and Gerard De Nerval have taken place in my paintings. Their histrionic lives and pessimistic aspects interest me.  There is a Russian author called Sergey Yesenin, but I have not painted him yet.

CA: Do you agree with Botero’s saying: “Art is deformation”. Does it overlap with the deformation in your figures?

NE: This depiction by Botero is very absolute. I try to get away from descriptions. This is true for his very paintings. Botero’s paintings are tied up to a certain deformation. All the people are chubby and round. I use deformation to make expression more impressive. I make the use of it while putting sensual and psychological stresses in my paintings.

Puskin

CA: What is the relation between the cat and the woman in your paintings? Can the cat be a symbol for something?

NE: The cat has a very suitable shape for the painting. It constantly changes its position and it has an active, flexible, and meaningful body, very mobile. I like cats. The cat in my paintings is me. I get into my paintings as a cat. It interprets a spiritual state. The cat is a free soul, it is more egoistic. The artist needs to be egoist sometimes. I think the cat and the artist look like each other.

CA:  What do you think about the “change” in painting or in the artist? For example, do you think the artist should change his/her style?

NE: The old has the new in it. No one can make a revolution where there is no tradition. People do not change just in order to be changed. A real painter does not make installations. If a painter is making installations, it means that he/she thinks that he/she is not good enough to express himself/herself by painting. That is why the installation artists use a different style of expression.

CA: What do you think is the criterion of the permanence in painting, or more generally in arts? What do you think about digital or video art when it comes to permanence?

NE: Anything can disappear. Digital art is a different way of expression. I have never thought that the painting was dead, that is why the digital arts appeared. Digital arts tell a story. The story is sometimes so long that they have to put a few pages of commentary right next to it. I prefer color painting. The art, where the style is much more important is more effective and permanent. I do not collect anything because of the pessimistic in me. Someone should collect the valuable and make them lasting. This is important.

CA: Thank you very much for the interview.

NE: I thank to you and EuroArt Magazine for this opportunity.

interview

The Painter Beyond Borders

Interview with Zak Smith

EuroArt You usually prefer to work as series. Do you feel freer expressing yourself in series?
Zak Smith I only work in series about half the time, but the press only talks about the things that are easy to describe.  In a 3-sentence blurb, it's easier for them to write "Smith's series: 'Girls in the Naked Girl Business" than it is to write "a bunch of abstract paintings that are all different and intricate and all very good".

Air Strikes

EA In your ‘Gravity's Rainbow Illustrations’ you achieved excellently to illustrate each page of Pynchon's novel. What do you think about "translatability" between other types of arts, like literature and fine arts, or, fine arts and cinema, Etc.?
ZS There is a great deal of optimism, among artists and public institutions that fund art, about moving between media.  I think however, the best stuff in any medium is great precisely because it shows you something in a way only that medium can do.  For example, most crappy airport novels read less like things meant to be read alone quietly by people in chairs than like film scripts waiting to happen.  The sentences are lists of shots rather than someone enjoying what can be done only in words.  It's the same way so much installation art looks like--or even is--just props left over from someone making a movie.  As if there was always 100% overlap between an object that makes a useful or pleasing shape on a screen and an object that expects to mutely grab and hold your attention for minutes on end by itself when you walk into a room.  You have to design your art, whatever it is, to take full advantage of every aspect the unique experience each separate medium sets up.  So the GR pictures were mostly about rendering the fleeting images in the novel as richly as possible and using visual instead of verbal techniques to get across the same sense of mood.  I tried to make a piece of art as dense and complicated as the language in the novel--I don't think I usually succeeded, but I think I learned some things I could use later.

Zak Smith

EA What is the conceptual background of ‘100 Girls 100 Octopuses’? Are the octopuses symbolizing men there psychoanalytically?
ZS There was absolutely no conceptual background to ‘100 Girls and 100 Octopuses’.  Here was my idea:

-I wanted to do the same picture over and over 100 times, in the hope that maybe one or two of them might turn out to be unbelievably beautiful

-I wanted a subject that would be distinctive enough to be interesting (to me--so it would hold my attention for the year it took to do it)

-I wanted a subject which had no obvious meaning--this was harder than you might think, imagine if it had been 100 dogs or 100 eagles or 100 monkeys or 100 televisions or 100 bottles--nearly every subject allows an opening for the claws of the interpretation  Even the octopus thing has been repeatedly interpreted in the light of the least plausible scribblings of a
long-discredited Viennese coke-addict.

-I wanted a subject that had as little in-built visual constraints as possible--the octopus, unlike a car or a cat, can pretty much fit anywhere in a picture, without introducing any kind of magic.  Also, octopuses come in all sizes and colors and so leave many options open.  I wanted to be as unconstrained as possible within the extreme constraint of having to draw the
same image 100 times.  It was inspired maybe by Borges, Ouilpo and the
Arabian Nights.

This is not to say it has no content (all objects have a precisely equal amount of content) content is simply not the point.  The same way a chef  makes a steak in order to feed people tasty food rather than to say something or inspire certain kinds of thoughts.

Nervous

EA In spite of your radical political tendencies and some hardcore activities, there is a calm and silent harmony in your paintings. Is it a contradictory dilemma or two other creative face of your artistic character?
ZS If my pictures are calm--and sometimes they definitely are—it’s because I am interested in what can actually be done with a viewer's attention in a gallery or while they're looking at an art book.  Let's be realistic—you can listen to a song while you type, or you can listen to it while you put the ruling classes heads on spikes, but a person spending any time closely looking at a picture (or a television show) is, at that moment, a person at rest, waiting to see.  I want to do as much as humanly possible with that window of attention, so I often make pictures which are full of carefully made activity.  A pictures feels right when it looks like the exact same amount of time was spent conceiving it as executing it and the person was thinking the whole time.  Pollock paintings feel right because they show an immediate impulse and, physically, viscerally, we can see the paint hitting the surface in a moment’s time, a moment's thought.  If I dash out a picture of a cop in a riot--like I did for GR, it should look fast.  If I honestly create a lot of complex and different activity on the page, then the picture will often have a lot of slow, puzzling time encoded into it. It will be a slow picture about slow time.  And there's nothing wrong with that—punks think, real anarchists think, they think way more than anyone else, that's why they're anarchists.

EA What is your opinion about the conception of sexuality in the capitalist societies when you look at as an anarchist and also a porn star?
ZS I have never bought the whole European school ideology-and-context-control-us-all spiel. My feeling is, if you are aware of these things, if you can watch a TV commercial and know what its trying to get you to do and how and still you don't want to go buy a Pepsi or a truck, then you are out of it, your desires are your own, whatever biology's roulette wheel stuck you with. If you're too stupid to do that, you are completely fucked forever and I don't feel responsible for your actions, though I may try to avoid or prevent them.  If someone reads a Jim Thompson novel and decides to go murder people, they are totally insane, if someone sees an ad for a Rolex and decides to go buy a Rolex they are totally insane.  If people see a porn movie and it changes the way they think about women, they are insane.

Attractive women who feel the way I do about sex--that there should be a lot of it with lots of people all the time--often realize that they can make money off that attitude.  So they go to LA to make porn.  Since this means there are a lot less of them everywhere else, I follow them.  I take the money I make and give as much as possible to people like Food Not Bombs.

Holiday Detail

Varrick Monke

EA When is your new project *Drawings from around the Time I Became a Porn Star *will be available? Could you tell us a little on this project?
ZS Well it keeps getting bigger.  I showed it at SFMOMA and it had like 60 pictures and now it's up to like 160.  You can see it at Kavi Gupta Gallery now and at Fred in London in October.  I am working on writing a bunch of true stories about being in the industry and the stories and the pictures will be together in a book. The drawings themselves record what was going on during this time--so there are pictures from the sets of porn movies, pictures of the actresses at home, plus whatever else was going on at the rest of the time--what was happening in the news, etc.  It's the the porn thing in the larger context of life during the Bush era.